The Athletic has launched a series of sports debates in which two writers break down a specific topic. In this edition, Liverpool correspondent James Pearce and Manchester United writer Carl Anka discuss which club’s fans should be most excited for the new Premier League season.
Liverpool and Manchester United meet at Old Trafford on Sunday in the Premier League as English football’s two most successful clubs reignite their rivalry.
Both have been through eras of dominance and relative decline and despite each sharing a city with other top-flight clubs (Everton and Manchester City), they continue to judge their successes and failures in relation to each other.
But which club is actually the biggest is debatable. How do you measure that? League titles? European cups? The size of stadium? Worldwide following?
Here, Liverpool correspondent James Pearce and Manchester United writer Carl Anka discuss. Leave your thoughts below.
Pearce: Glory has to be the most important factor here. There isn’t much between these two heavyweights when you look at domestic success, with United leading the way with 20 league titles compared to Liverpool’s 19. But when it comes to landing the biggest prize in European club football, Liverpool are in a class of their own. Only Real Madrid and AC Milan have bettered six European Cups.
Not only have Liverpool won it twice as many times as United, but they were responsible for the most iconic Champions League final triumph in history with the Miracle of Istanbul in 2005.
United simply don’t have the same European pedigree…
Anka: I’m not having you claim the Miracle of Istanbul is a more memorable Champions League final than 1999. Bayern Munich’s name was being etched on the trophy and United still found a way to win. I would also argue that Beating AC Milan wasn’t so much a miracle as it was a sensible tactical adjustment. Rafa Benitez realised Steven Gerrard was running about like a headless chicken, so Dietmar Hamann came on at half-time, Gerrard’s energies were properly channelled and the good times rolled in. You can explain how Liverpool turned it around in 2005 with Xs and Os. You can’t really do the same for 1999, which makes it a bigger cosmic event.
And if you want to talk silverware from last season, then United have an FA Cup trophy. And they earned it by first beating Liverpool in the quarter-finals…
United beat Liverpool in last season’s FA Cup (Michael Regan/Getty Images)
Pearce: Sadly, the FA Cup just isn’t the competition it once was. The devaluing of it started when a club famously withdrew from taking part in 1999-2000…
Yes, Liverpool and United finished last season with a trophy apiece, but they were separated by 22 points in the Premier League table. Third versus a very distant eighth.
It was the fourth time in the last six seasons Liverpool have finished above United. It’s less than 18 months since Liverpool hammered United 7-0. The biggest just don’t get humbled like that…
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Anka: I’ve tried my best to memory hole that evening at Anfield, so you can have that. If you count glory as the most important factor, then United are bigger in the more important competition. There are times when the best team in Europe fails to lift the Champions League, but a league title is a league title and United have 20 to Liverpool’s 19. United are in a low period for now, but they remain the biggest football club in England and a commercial juggernaut few sports teams can compete with…
Pearce: Talking of juggernauts, Klopp’s Liverpool had the misfortune of being up against one in Manchester City. We’ll see if they were unfairly denied a couple more titles once there’s a verdict on City’s 115 charges. For Liverpool to get 97 and 92 points and not win the league in those years was crazy — that’s more points than Ferguson’s United ever accumulated over a 38-game season.
The biggest clubs have a clear strategy and vision. United’s approach to recruitment seems to be very scattergun. They have consistently out-spent Liverpool but have squandered a fortune… Antony and Jadon Sancho anyone?
Klopp and Liverpool celebrate their Premier League title (Laurence Griffiths/Getty Images)
Anka: And yet, for all of that hype and bluster, Liverpool couldn’t beat United in three matches last season. On your best days, United still have more fans and more money in the bank. Even when you’re in the ascendancy, you have difficulty landing big punches on your biggest rivals.
But I will give you, off the pitch, in terms of strategy, yes, it is worth noting how well FSG has run Liverpool. It has turned them into one of the most valuable clubs in the world. I say “one of” because back in May, figures compiled by Sportico put United as the world’s highest valued football club at $6.2billion (£4.96bn), with Liverpool worth $5.11bn.
Even during this FSG X Klopp-flavoured peak, Liverpool still cannot match the financial and commercial heft of United during its footballing slump.
Pearce: Well, after dominating in the 1970s and 1980s, Liverpool fell a long way behind United, but times have changed. United have floundered post-Ferguson and throughout the Klopp era, Liverpool made rapid strides forward both on and off the pitch.
Blinkfire Analytics reports Liverpool were the most engaged Premier League club last season (more than 1.5 billion fan engagements) and the most viewed on social media (11.9 billion views of club channels), plus the most watched club in the Premier League across the world last season. Audience insights, data and analytics experts Nielsen found, as detailed on the club website here, that Liverpool had a cumulative TV global audience of 471 million for all 38 league games.
And Liverpool were the first Premier League club to reach 10 million subscribers on YouTube. Plus, interest is booming in the States and Liverpool have closed the gap significantly on United in terms of commercial revenue by landing lucrative deals with Google Pixel, Peloton, UPS and Orion Innovation. They all want a piece of Liverpool.
Anka: That growth has certainly been impressive and they are getting ever closer to United as a commercial draw, but that was a United run by the Glazer family in a dysfunctional malaise, that still somehow figured out a way to keep their noses in front.
Look at the Adidas deal: United signed a 10-year deal worth £900million, a world record. Snapdragon’s investment in United over the next five years is worth $375million. These are eye-watering sums being committed to the club that Liverpool cannot compete with.
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The United argument would be that with a few years of sporting success and stability under INEOS, the gap between the clubs should get bigger as more people look to attach themselves — and their wallets — to a future, winning United team.
How will United be developed financially under INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe? (Mike Hewitt/Getty Images)
Pearce: Enough about money, though, let’s get back to on-pitch matters. After all that spending, which United players even get in Liverpool’s best starting line-up? Maybe Kobbie Mainoo at a push. Certainly nobody at the back or in the forward line…
Anka: And yet, for all of that hype and bluster, Liverpool couldn’t beat United in three matches last season. United still have more fans and more money in the bank.
Anyway, what about fans and stadiums? Liverpool broke their home attendance with 60,107 at Anfield for the 2-0 victory over Brentford. A respectable figure, but not in the same weight class as United. Plus, the proposed new stadium could be revelatory.
Coming off United’s worst Premier League finish, Ten Hag’s side still has pull.
Pearce: Anfield will never rival Old Trafford in terms of size because of the limitations of where it’s situated, but its redevelopment has been impressive — two stands rebuilt and expanded at a cost of around £200m, with the capacity climbing from 44,000 to around 61,000.
Anfield has been modernised with a financial outlay that made sense and was affordable, while the history and tradition of the place has been maintained. What a contrast to the way in which Old Trafford has been neglected and left to deteriorate. It’s a sorry state. Has that roof been fixed yet?
Anka: Hey! That’s not just an Old Trafford issue! You saw the rain come through at Dortmund over the Euros and a bit more this weekend in the Premier League, too. Plenty of stadiums are struggling with the more erratic climate. But rest assured, when United do decide on what to do next with their ground, it’ll be a triumph. Anyway, is your new manager ready for Sunday? Erik ten Hag has won two and lost two of his previous meetings with him…
Pearce: It will certainly be a culture shock for Arne Slot after the relatively gentle introduction to life in the Premier League. It will open his eyes to the sheer intensity and hostility of the rivalry and Liverpool go to Old Trafford in a position they have become increasingly accustomed to in the modern era — looking down on United.
Anka: Race you to 21?
(Top photo: United and Liverpool played a pre-season friendly in South Carolina in August; by Grant Halverson/Getty Images)
